sans que and ne expletive

Question

This confused me: "- If the main verb is __NOT used with negations__, then you CANNOT use the ne explétif.
- If the main verb is __used with a negation__, you can use the ne explétif, but it is considered optional"I asked Claude (which is an AI and can make mistakes). " The text has it backwards. The traditional rule is the opposite:
If the main clause is affirmative (no negation), the ne explétif is used (optionally, in formal/literary style).If the main clause is negative, the ne explétif is dropped, because adding it would create ambiguity or redundancy with the real negation.
Examples:
Je sors sans qu'il ne le sache — main clause affirmative (je sors) → ne explétif is appropriate here.Je ne sors pas sans qu'il le sache — main clause already negative (je ne sors pas) → the ne explétif is omitted to avoid confusion."Is this a conflict between the two explanations, or am I (likely) just misunderstanding?

Rebecca Webster · Answer

From what is been mentioned from you, it does look like the " ne expletif can also be used to determine and refusal and it would be followed by pas"

For example " Je ne sors pas sans qu'il ne le sache pas du tout." This is looking a little inap-propriate here.

Maarten Kamp · Answer

John,

Laura Lawless agrees with what is written in the lesson by Aurélie. Claude AI, which I use as well, has this wrong by the looks of it.

See attached link for list of triggers of ne explétif.

Laura has a special asterisked note for ‘ sans que ‘ which operates in an ‘ exceptional ‘ way ( in the list of conjunctions )

: ** Needs ne explétif only when the verb before sans que is negated.

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/ne-expletif/

Maarten Kamp · Answer

John,

just for fun, here is Claude’s full response to my presenting it with the above details :

“ The general ne explétif rule (for most conjunctions)

For conjunctions like avant que, à moins que, de peur que, the standard rule is roughly what the previous Claude described: the ne explétif appears when the main clause is affirmative. This is the familiar pattern learners encounter first.

Sans que is genuinely exceptional

With sans que, the guidelines are inverted: if the main verb is NOT used with a negation, you CANNOT use the ne explétif. If the main verb IS used with a negation, you can use the ne explétif, but it is considered optional.

So the examples are:

∙ ✅ J’ai réussi sans qu’ils le veuillent. — no negation in main clause → no ne explétif

∙ ✅ Je ne partirai pas sans que tu ne m’embrasses. — main clause negated → ne explétif optional

The previous Claude’s example “Je sors sans qu’il ne le sache” would actually be incorrect by these rules, since je sors is affirmative.

Why is sans que exceptional?

There is some debate among grammarians about using sans que with the ne explétif, as some consider it erroneous, while others specify that it must be used with a negative verb in the main clause. The logic is that sans already carries inherent negative meaning (“without”), so adding a ne explétif when there’s no negation in the main clause would be semantically odd or redundant. According to the Académie française, sans que doesn’t require the ne explétif at all, except in higher-register French, and then only in a negative context.

Bottom line

Aurélie’s lesson and Laura Lawless are consistent with each other and with the Académie française’s position. The previous Claude response correctly stated the general ne explétif rule but misapplied it to sans que, which is a well-documented exception. “