Ordinal and cardinal numbers - differences between French and English usages

Hi Bill,

If you look at my answer to Robin, it might clarify things for you....

Hi Robin,

In the case of one third , meaning 33.33% (1/3) of something, the word tiers is 'un mot invariable' and doesn't agree with the noun it applies to(or the person speaking)

e.g. 

Un tiers des électeurs ne s'est pas déplacé pour voter = One third of the electorate didn't go and vote

Un tiers de la famille a été décimé par les inondations = One third of the family was decimated by the floods

Un tiers de la foule était composé de femmes = A third of the crowd was made up of women

Hope this helps!

I appreciate the reply in regard to tiers, but tierce is used once in an example and I am not sure when I should use it. 

Hi Robin,

The adjective 'tiers/tierce' will only be used in certain expressions like 'tierce personne' or 'tierce partie' to mean a third party -

Also in the following expressions -

Le tiers-monde = The third World

Le Tiers-état = The third estate/tier of society 

The noun 'tierce' is used in some card games to denote three cards following each other.

It has very limited use...

Hope this helps!

Merci!

Hi David,

I'm sure you're right that the "third" in "Third World" refers to an order rather than a fraction.

I think the reason that "tiers" is used is probably historical. Although "Third World" is a relatively recent term it was coined from the much older expression "Third Estate" - "le tiers-état".

I imagine at the time when that term was created the language was rather different and "tiers" could be used to mean 3rd in sequence.

 

Thank you - since a Frenchman coined the term, based on Third Estate, (at least per Wikipedia) - I can’t argue.  I’m learning that many things I have to accept don’t have such a clear basis - but I have to accept and learn them!

Thank you Alan for this excellent answer.

I was discussing this question posed by David with some French people yesterday as I have to admit I had never asked myself since in my mind it only designates a status and I learnt that there is another term 'le quart-monde'.

After a bit of research it appears that 'le quart-monde' was coined in 1969 to designate people under the threshold of poverty. It is wonderful to learn something new. If you are interested, take a peak at:

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quart-monde

all in French I am afraid but good practice.

I am having a lot of trouble submitting questions! In brief, can you please explain again about "un tier", a masculine (noun) and une tierce, a feminine noun or is it an adjective? You use tiers (masculine) or tierce (feminine) instead of troisième when expressing a fraction, but une tierce de personne comme un temon can't be a third of a person.

Bonjour Paul !

The expression is une tierce personne as in a third party in English. It's usually used in a legal context for example.

I cannot really think of other cases when we use tierce, as tiers is the one you used when expressing a fraction, hence in most cases:
un tiers, deux tiers...
Un tiers du monde    -> a third of the world

I hope that's helpful!
Bonne journée !

Merci Aurélie. 

Hi Mary,

Yes, "la bouteille" is feminine but "un tiers" is masculine. So "un tiers de la bouteille".

-- Chris (not a native speaker).

So then why not say "J'ai bu une tierce de la bouteille"? 

But tierce is used in the other example to agree with the feminine personne. So, like Steven, I'm not understanding the reasoning here. Doesn't tiers/tierce, agree with the noun like premier/première and second/seconde do?

Also "There is a lot of poverty in the Third World." (in Third World countries) To say "in the Third World." implies theres only one Third World. The way the sentence is structured seems incomplete. You could also say "There is a lot of poverty in the Third World country known as Mozambique"

Bonjour Gio ! Thanks very much for these remarks :) In French, it's perfectly correct to use "le Tiers Monde" as a general expression for all under developed countries, but I agree it sounds weird in English. I've now edited these examples accordingly. Merci et à bientôt !

Bonsoir Mary Anne, I can certainly understand why it would appear that way; however, in French it is a little different. Here is the explanation from the lesson: «Notice that cardinal numbers (deux, trois, quatre...) are used for royalty where ordinals (second, third, fourth...) are used in English, except for 1st = Ier / premier:» Given this explanation, Henry VIII (The Eighth) would become Henry huit. I hope that you find this useful and that the answer covers you question. Bonne chance et bonne continuation,

Bonjour Surendra ! "tiers" is masculine and "tierce" is feminine : "une tierce personne" / "le tiers monde" I've added a note to the lesson ! Merci beaucoup et à bientôt !

Bonjour Robert, No, it's not an error. Ier is the Roman number I (one) followed by er - it's just another way of writing 1er, the abbreviation of premier.

THE RULE: Notice that cardinal numbers (deux, trois, quatre...) are used for royalty where ordinals (second, third, fourth...) are used in English, except for 1st = Ier / premier.

The pronunciation in "François Ier protégea Léonard de Vinci" and "J'ai bu un tiers de la bouteille." is not as clear as the pronunciation of other speakers in this lesson.