Ni l'un(e) ni l'autre ne ... = Neither [one nor the other] (negation)

Hi Jay,

Can you give the full context?

Bonjour Max !

We've now updated the lesson :)

Merci et bonne journée !

de rien!

Hi Tom,

Both sentences are similar in meaning and correct.

Aucune des deux ne vient = Neither is coming

Ni l'une ni l'autre ne vient= Neither one nor the other is coming

Hope this helps!

 

Oops. Just found out aucun/e can apply to people....so would the use of aucun or personne be correct?

You can say either: "aucun n'a répondu" or "personne n'a répondu".
They mean about the same thing with a slight difference in connotation:
"aucun" seems to imply a known group of people of which nobody replied. "personne" is simply "nobody".

Comparing it to English, it seems to me that "aucun" is similar to "none" and "personne" to "nobody".

-- Chris (not a native speaker).

Bonjour Helen !

To complete Chris's answer, here is a link to our related lessons:

https://progress.lawlessfrench.com/revision/grammar/how-to-say-none-ne-aucun-e-negative-expressions

https://progress.lawlessfrench.com/revision/grammar/aucun-e-ne-none-of-them

Bonne journée !

Bonjour, Chris and Aurelie-- Thank you both!! Very helpful. Somehow I can remember aucun(e) more easily!

I believe that Aucun in the plural can be used with those nouns that only exist in a plural form and also for those nouns whose meanings differ from singular to plural.

e.g.Aucuns agrès (No equipment), Aucunes arrhes (No deposit);  Aucuns frais (No charges).

 

Also,

D'aucuns (Some (people)) acting as an equivalent of Certains or Quelques-uns is sometimes used:

          D'aucuns croient que la terre est plate.

Much like ils/elles if the group is all female (or in your question both components are female) use l'une, otherwise for all male or mixed groups use l'un.

Bonjour James, I think that you are correct because «fraise» is definitely a feminin noun. This is one that Aurélie needs to reply to as there could be a grammaire rule that I am unaware of. Note that l'un/l'une agrees in gender with the object it refers to. Tu veux fraise ou vanille? - Ni l'un ni l'autre. Do you want strawberry or vanilla? - Neither. Bonne chance !

Really interesting. I can't say for sure but I do know that "ni l'un ni l'autre" is often a fixed expression in French. I also notice that in the examples given, that agreement is shown in relation to an aforementioned masculine or feminine person, and is perhaps not required (or maybe it just gets forgotten) when relating to the gender of an object. I suspect it would apply to animals but perhaps not with asexual nouns (which still technically have a grammatical gender of course).

Bonjour Ron, Did Aurélie ever respond to this question? The lesson hasn't been changed to "Ni l'une ni l'autre" to respond to the "fraise ou vanille" question.

Hi,

The actual question is " Quel parfum tu veux ? vanille ou fraise? "

Answer: " Ni l'un, ni l'autre",  as it agrees with parfum which is masculine.

Hope you all read this...

Bonjour James, I do believe you are correct as «fraise» is a feminine noun. Perhaps this is one that Aurélie needs to respond to in case there is a grammar rule that I am unaware of that would make this an exception. Note that l'un/l'une agrees in gender with the object it refers to. Ni l'un/e ni l'autre can also be used on its own to express neither: Tu veux fraise ou vanille? - Ni l'un ni l'autre. Do you want strawberry or vanilla? - Neither. Bonne chance !

Thanks Ron, I would assume that if one of the subjects had been masculine, then it would be Ni l`un..., but both are feminine.

Bonjour Michael,
In the context of the phrase, ni. . .ni. . n'a mangé, it would translate as neither of them ate. However, literally speaking yes ni . . . ni is neither. . . nor.

Bonjour Michael !

The translation of ni...ni... varies depending on sentences.
In the lesson you referred to, "ni l'un ni l'autre" literally mean "Neither one nor the other", which would sometimes be better translated in English as "Neither of them".

But I agree that it applies mostly to people, and we could prefer "neither one nor the other" when it comes (like here) to food...

I've therefore decided to update the lesson title to : Ni l'un(e) ni l'autre ne ... = Neither [one nor the other] (negation) :)

I hope that's helpful!
Merci beaucoup et à bientôt !

Ron, Aurélie. Thanks for your clear and succinct answer, as usual. Cheers Mike.

Bonjour, I am correct then in saying; Ni l`une ni l`autre? As both fraise and vanille are feminine? The lesson is already entitled `Ni l'un(e) ni l'autre ne...` Therefore no update is required.

I have read this thread attentively and am none the wiser as regards the fraise/vanille problème.

To quote Ron:

"

Note that l'un/l'une agrees in gender with the object it refers to.
Ni l'un/e ni l'autre can also be used on its own to express neither:
Tu veux fraise ou vanille? - Ni l'un ni l'autre.
Do you want strawberry or vanilla? - Neither.

"

Surely since frais/vanille has already been referenced the only valid reply in this case should be "ni l'une ni l'autre"

Am I not understanding properly?

Bonjour Tom !

Ok, I completely agree that this example is confusing at best :)

The explanation is that here we're talking about flavours (ice cream, yoghurt...), which in French is masculine = un parfum.

Therefore, it's my humble opinion that that's why we use the masculine here, but I agree that it looks so illogical to non-French natives!

I've decided to rephrase this example, to make the antecedent clearer.

I hope that's helpful!
Bonne journée !

can you please give another example of this construction. I can't intuitively understand it.

Bonjour Diana ! Are you talking about "qu'en est-il" or "ni l'un ni l'autre" ?

qu'en est-il is one of the example sentences in that topic. so yes, qu'en est-il de J et S means what about J and S. It's just a strange construction for me.

Bonjour Diana ! "Qu'en est-il ?" literally means "What is of it?". When used with "de", as such: "Qu'en est-il de ... ?" , it means "What is it of ...? / What about ...?". I hope that's helpful! À bientôt !

thank you! that is very helpful!

Bonjour Héctor ! Could you please give me a specific example of what you mean, and I'd be happy to look into it for you :)