Question about "Il était une fois, un roi et une reine qui vivaient dans un château"

Question

Is there a grammar lesson that explains the use and/or necessity of "qui" in this sentence? Merci.

Accepted Answer

Hi John,
'Il était une fois' can be translated by -
Once upon a time there was/were ....
or 
'There once was/were ..........'
...a king and a queen who lived in a castle'
which might make more sense to you.
No grammatical rule, it is just the way stories (particularly children stories) start in French....
Hope this helps!

Answer

Hi John,
'Qui'  is 'who' in this sentence, and very much necessary in French as in English.
Here is the Kwiziq lesson regarding this particular relative pronoun -
https://french.kwiziq.com/revision/grammar/when-to-use-qui-to-say-who-which-or-that-relative-pronouns
Hope this helps!

Answer

That doesn't fully explain why you would use a relative pronoun here. You don't use one in the English translation:

Once upon a time, a king and a queen lived in a castle.

You could say:

Once upon a time, there were a king and a queen who lived in a castle.

I think the point is that, although we're generally told that "Il était une fois" means "once upon a time", it's really "once upon a time there was".

"Il était une fois" = "il y avait une fois"

Answer

Yes, Alan has nicely explained the reason for my question.

If the following French was written I could understand the use of "qui":

"Il était une fois, il y avait un roi et une reine qui vivaient dans un château"

But with no "il y avait," for the reason Alan explained the necessity of "qui" doesn't seem obvious.

Answer

I think I also answered your question - or is it still unclear?

Answer

Alan: Yes, I did understand. Thank you.I was just trying to make a little more explicit how an English-language understanding gets represented in French in the hope that one of the French experts could provide an explicit grammar road map that shows how "once upon a time there was" (whatever the appropriate expression in French is") and "qui" are combined.You and I have both pointed to "il y avait . . ." Obviously that's incorrect, but I would like to know the specific grammar grammar reason for what it's incorrect and why "Il était une fois" possibly incorporates the idea of "il y avait".

Answer

Correction: You and I have both pointed to "il y avait . . ." Obviously that's incorrect, but I would like to know the specific grammar for why it's incorrect and why "Il était une fois" apparently incorporates the idea of "il y avait".

Answer

Dear Cécile:Thank you. Now I understand.I also asked another question on or around the same day, 18 May, but have yet to receive a reply. Unfortunately I don't see any website function to locate one's own questions so I cannot tell you where it is and I have forgotten myself.

Answer

Or maybe "There was once" : tho why the comma is needed in the French sentence, I don’t understand. Maybe it’s just a longstanding tradition ?