Is "ni l'un ni l'autre" singular or plural?

Question

Mes deux frères sont bons en langues, mais ni l'un ni l'autre ne sont bon en maths.
My two brothers are good at languages, but neither is good at maths

Should this be "ni l'un ni l'autre n'est bon"? According to a french speaking friend (and Gemini) l'un and l'autre refer to each brother individually, so it should be singular.

Thanks

Céline Pickard · Accepted Answer

Bonjour à tous,
Here, and just like Maarten explained, and as per the example in the lesson (i.e. "Mes filles sont bonnes en maths, mais ni l'une ni l'autre ne sont bonnes en français."), using the plural is correct in "Mes deux frères sont bons en langues, mais ni l'un ni l'autre ne sont bons en maths." because you are considering the subject "ni l'un ni l'autre" as a collective. However, it is possible to use the singular too: "ni l'un ni l'autre n'est bon en maths." However, in this specific question, "sont bons" is already given, therefore, you only need to produce "ni l'un ni l'autre".
FYI, I have deleted Cécile's answer. So, reading the follow on discussion might not make complete sense.
I hope this is helpful.
Bonne journée !

Maarten Kamp · Answer

Patrick,

This distinction is covered in the lesson.

“ Agreement of the verb

The rule is as follows:

- If the action could potentially be carried out simultaneously by both subjects introduced by ni...ni..., then use the plural form of the verb (ils/elles form). - If the action could only be carried out by one of the subjects introduced by ni...ni... at any given time, then use the singular form of the verb (il/elle/on form). “

In this example, both brothers being good at maths was a possible scenario.

It is also discussed in Larousse in the entry for ‘ un ‘

https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/francais/un/80515#difficulte

under

“ Difficultès

Ni l'un ni l'autre. Ni l'un ni l'autre demande le plus souvent le verbe au singulier, mais le pluriel est possible, en particulier si l'expression est prise dans un sens collectif : ni l'un ni l'autre n'est resté ; ni l'un ni l'autre n'accepta ou n'acceptèrent ; ni l'une ni l'autre proposition ne me convient ou ne me conviennent ; ni l'un ni l'autre n'étaient français.

Ni l'un ni l'autre est toujours suivi d'un verbe au singulier quand l'un des sujets exclut manifestement l'autre : ni l'un ni l'autre ne sera élu.
Si le verbe précède, le pluriel est de règle : ils n'ont parlé ni l'un ni l'autre. “

For interest, my wife, a native French speaker and accredited bilingual English-French translator, gave the immediate response to translating the English sentence to French with ‘ … ne sont bon .. ‘, although the niche grammatical explanation for why it “ sounded right “ rather than the singular verb agreement escaped her !

Maarten Kamp · Answer

Cécile,

if that is the case, it doesn’t fit with this example from the lesson, given as correct :

“ Mes filles sont bonnes en maths, mais ni l'une ni l'autre ne sont bonnes en français.

My daughters are good at maths, but neither one [nor the other] is good at French. “

Neither does it fit with this explanation from the lesson :

“ The rule is as follows:- If the action could potentially be carried out simultaneously by both subjects introduced by ni...ni..., then use the plural form of the verb (ils/elles form). “

It also does not fit with the direct cut and paste discussion from Larousse.

Patrick Kirk · Answer

Hi Maarten (and Cecile), thanks for the response. This seems to be a somewhat ambiguous corner case. The general rule seems to be to use "n'est" but sometimes it can be "ne sont". My friend also had to think about it and also started with "ne sont", but when I quizzed her she changed her mind to "n'est".

Maarten Kamp · Answer

Patrick,

this link is Québécois but also interesting.

https://vitrinelinguistique.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/21490/la-grammaire/le-verbe/accord-du-verbe-avec-le-sujet/sujets-joints-par-une-conjonction/accord-du-verbe-avec-des-sujets-unis-par-ni

Cécile Janty-Davies · Answer

This is just to let you know that I have escalated this to the rest of the French team.

Patrick Kirk · Answer

@Maarten, thanks! This is a very helpful article. Based on this article I think kwiziq has it correctly because the first part of the sentence uses sont "Mes deux frères *sont* bons en langues", so the second part should also. I thiink I have the general rule now, but will need to think carefully when using it in practice. Once again, many thanks for the detailed answer.

Cécile Janty-Davies · Answer

Just to clarify matters, the original quiz question was testing the agreement of the verb with the second 'bon en maths' which is in the singular, so only singular answers were accepted.
I believe this quiz question has been altered since I answered the first time.